[REJECTED] [Paladin][Holy] Beacon of Virtue vs. Velen's Future Sight 2

[Lhiithium]

WoW Freakz spell link: Beacon of Virtue and Velen's Future Sight.

Proof: I am keeping the proofs from this post: Beacon of Virtue vs. Velen's Future Sight and I will try to re-explain it better.

Bug description: The healing transferred through Beacon does not count as "your" healing and therefore it should not interact with Velen's at all (in comparison with Holy Shock etc.).

LINK (14.14), watch it on very slow to see the sequence of actions.
It goes like this, after the dispel:
He Beacons everybody but him and uses Velen's.
He uses LoD.
He uses Holy Shock on himself.
We see 4 healings from the Beacon (0.4* 3.4mil = 1.36 mils).
AND
We see 2 small heals of 294k which is Velen's heal (from the Holy Shock's overheal).

And that's pretty much it. Holy Shock goes into Beacon (40%) and into Velen's (overhealed ammount split evenly). There's NO Beacon healing that goes into Velen's.

It did loop before, but that wasn't the main problem, but the fact that Beacon and Velen's should not interact at all.

This happens on Freakz after the fix.

565k Flash of Light healing, ok.
565 / 2 / 3 = 94k Velen's healing from overheal, ok.
226k (40%) Beacon healing, ok.
and here it should have stopped, but we see a 37k healing that is
226k / 2 / 3 which is Beacon interracting with Velen's.

[Elvenking]

It doesn't really make sense to me that paladin beacon overhealing is not counted towards velen's as beacons heals are treated as normal effective healing you do.
I mean velens not using beacon healing would be quite a huge deal so there should atleast someone talking about this matter on any wow forum or guide?
Also what happens to discipline priests atonement healing then?

Regarding your proof I can't confirm any overhealing done by the beacon he used on his group.
If you watch the HP closely after his 3.4m holy shock the tank and the warrior are not full HP and the other 2 dps were probably not full HP before velen's healed them for 294k too.

This guy tells in his guide that it works with beacon
LINK(17:35)

Still looking for a proper proof in a video but it's very hard to have a clear image of heal numbers with velen active and overhealing done.
This video might be somthing as he overheals on the beacon target (tank) at 0:38 and you see a lot of numbers (of course some are tyr's deliverance but to me it looks like velen procced twice too).

[Lhiithium]

1. In my proof, you can see very clearly that the Beacon heals the mage fully, I don't know about the ret paladin (since he goes into almost full and then goes full probably from the Judgement of the Light used at 14.07).
I doubt the Beacon does not go into overheal at all and it heals the mage perfectly so it does not trigger Velen's.
The ret paladin is not relevant, but still, there are 2 full persons, one with a beacon and one without that both could have triggered the Velen's, yet there's two small heals, from the HS's overheal (I did the math in the other post).

2. I have made another post on Beacons and trinkets and since the other trinkets do not trigger the Beacon, why would Velen make an exception?
https://forum.wow-freakz.com/FIXED-Paladin-Holy-Beacons-and-healing-trinkets-t560732.html

3. In the disc priest's case, its obvious that Atonement procs Velen's because its damage transferred into healing and since Velen's can not interact with the priest's damaging spells it interacts with each individual Atonement heal.
Holy pala transfers a big heal into smaller heals, which is not the same, why would both (big and small) heals get transferred?

4. Your proofs:

First one: there's a guy talking about the legendary, putting an emphasis on it for the build, but there's nothing concrete in there to prove that it does or not interact with the Beacon. It's redundant.
Second one: I do not know where to look since it's a raid environment and there's no clear cut scene in which I would be able to identify spells and numbers (in comparison with my proof where you can see exactly what goes where).

[Vouchery]

I had a talk with the Theory crafter/Guide maker from Icy veins and Questionably Epic for Holy Paladin He said it should redistribute healing from BoV

https://imgur.com/a/jzzeFhb

Heres also a Forum post saying that it should https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759417494#post-6

Holy Paladins kit revolves around Overhealing, Implying that this is a thing would make Velens one of the worst legendaries for Holy paladins compared to retail where It was considered rank 1 for Holy Paladin too.

also saying that "healing from beacon does not count as your healing" makes no sense since the healing wont be applied if the Paladin itself didnt cast a heal on the Beacon itself and/or cast the beacon. Its not an outside source like if another healer healed my beacon it shouldnt redistribute their healing or velens healing. The same bug you got fixed when Velens healing (which is not a part of a Paladins kit or a spell by a paladin) was interacting with Beacon (A a Paladin spell which copies Paladin spell heals), Now it makes sense for Beacon (a Paladin spell that copies healing from a paladin therefore is FROM the Paladin and counts as THEIR healing) to Interact with Velens which redistributes healing

"2. I have made another post on Beacons and trinkets and since the other trinkets do not trigger the Beacon, why would Velen make an exception?
https://forum.wow-freakz.com/FIXED-Paladin-Holy-Beacons-and-healing-trinkets-t560732.html " Because its a Legendary? That specifically tells you what it does? and that post is about Trinkets interacting with Beacon [Trinket (AN ITEM) >Beacon] you cant use that as an example when the report is about [Beacon (A SPELL) > Velens]


Sorry for all the Edits <3


Cho's MW Guide
Class Campaign Guide

[Lhiithium]

Yes, he may be a guide maker, just like any other guide maker on the internet, but if he uses words like "should" and "90% sure" that's not proof, it has no meaning or value to it, it's just somebody that's not sure about it,
regardless or their status with the holy paladin.

Maybe you could have also asked him why people on Freakz use Beacon of Virtue in a raid environment when every paladin on Blizzard used Faith, there's not a single soul using Virtue in ToS on Warcraft Logs (Link - just an observation, not necessarily an argument), there may be a reason behind it.

The forum post falls into the same category with the first link, as there's no numbers or video attached to it, they're people implying things being more dead-sure about it than the guide maker (which should know better, right?).

Yes, there would be no healing if the paladin wouldn't have cast it in the same way it would be dark if it wouldn't be light. The paladin's overhealing isn't sitting solely in BoV's overhealing, since the paladin has other heals,
that are direct heals (like LoD, HS etc. - which can overheal too, can't they?), not healing trasfer abilities. BoV isn't a healing that copies healing, it's an ability that transfers healing, subtle difference, but it's there and it's relevant. BoV on its own does no healing. Same thing happened for the disc priests that were buffed twice by their traits and it was clear to everybody something was off, why would Velen split both the direct and the transferred overhealing, why do it twice?

"The same bug you got fixed when Velen's healing was interacting with Beacon , Now it makes sense for Beacon to Interact with Velens which redistributes healing" - just because they do interact that doesn't mean they should, I've addressed the problem here, read it carefully, it's not just about the looping thing, that's why I made this second post.

Yes, that may be a legendary trinket, but it's still a trinket, regardless of it's rarity status.

Eventually, in spite of our speeches, it all comes down to numbers and to either having a relevant vid in which you can see what's happening or not; I do have one to sustain what I'm saying, I did the math, what's yours?

[Vouchery]

You did the math with "a video" contrary to mine where there retail players talking about it and coming from an actual source. You seem really Biased towards Holy Paladins towards the server, the reason why Holy Paladins didnt use Virtue and instead opted to Use Double beacon was because Disc priest was dominating the patch and Paladins were mainly used as Tank healers as you would notice theyre even using Decievers Grand Design for more tank healing and Maraads dying Breath, You would think in the 4 years of Legion theres gonna be 1 Guide out there that would specifically say that Beacons are not affected by Velens,

Saying that My proof isnt valid considering the Guide maker is a THEORY CRAFTER (you should look up what that means) aswell sounds stupid on its own. YOUR numbers means nothing if you directly Pull them from slowed down videos and theres no concrete logs of it.

In the END you cannot prove that this is a thing and you have 2 more days to give actual proof besides a slowed down video before we Reject this.

Good day.


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[Flashmoo]

Wow, Vouchery, you are really mad, not kidding.
Now you are saying that words > numbers, tell me more about it

Look at the 7.2.5 video that Lhiithium posted and where he described with details all the numbers. You didn't say anything about them you only argue with what is a theory crafter that wasn't sure anyway about anything.

And for your info, look on the below video where a holy paladin wasn't using BoV and he was focused only to do heal on raid not on tanks like you are saying.
Please stop inventing theories if you don't know the class at all.

Spoiler:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bxYyBRx_Oo8:

Retribution Paladin Guide PvE | In-Depth 7.3.5
Protection Paladin Guide PvE | In-Depth 7.3.5
Holy Paladin Guide PvE | In-Depth 7.3.5

[Lhiithium]

I did not do the math on "a video" contrary to yours, because you have none, there's just mine that sustains what I'm saying, you have "actual source" that comes from some forum posts and a theory maker who holds absolute authority over the subject that's not sure.

What proof do you need more than a video from Blizzard with those cds up? And even if there were logs about this episode (which would be impossible), how would you know something is wrong? You think I found that Velen's looping inside the Beacon by watching logs and drawing conclusions based on that?
You could actually read and watch the first post of this topic, because it just seems you didn't, which would be nice and would show more involvement in the problem, you're just attacking it overall, not pointing out the details, just a thought.

I have proved what I had to prove and unfortunately you're the one who's failing here. Why don't you grab an actual footage from Blizzard (whatever the source) in which you are showcasing exactly the problem, like I did. Also, it would be nice of you to stick to the facts and stop tagging things stupid or not, you're a helper here, not a dear anonymous hater of mine and for that I thank you in advance.

I hope that you are aware of the fact that there were needed 3 months for the other post to get sorted out and eventually it was, why rush with this one and close it so fast? Just because you can? There's nothing you brought to the table that showed exactly what you are saying, you just got a little bit too personal, aside from taking the paladin's helper place, which maybe you shouldn't.

[Elvenking]

Elvenking wrote:

Regarding your proof I can't confirm any overhealing done by the beacon he used on his group. If you watch the HP closely after his 3.4m holy shock the tank and the warrior are not full HP and the other 2 dps were probably not full HP before velen's healed them for 294k too..

I can just quote myself here denying the fact that your video proof is much better than any other posted proof yet.
Watching the health and numbers shown it is possible that beacon healing did not go into any overheal. As you might know the spell order is Holy Shock > Beacon > Velen's meaning that 4 out of the 5 guys clearly got topped by some other source like velen's procc from Holy Shock later.
Here is the scene you probably analyzed:

You see only the mage is full HP and it can have 2 reasons for me. First he actually got 100% and probably a bit overhealing from beacon, or second he actually leech healed himself at the same second from 99% to 100%. Watching the HP before beacon healed and comparing to the ret paladin who almost got 100% it was also for the mage a very close call and not clear overhealing.
As you see it is not 100% clear (which i don't expect on every bug, just this one is a little special as it denies what some other guys in their guides assumed to be correct and generally has a big impact. Even without virtue velen's + 2 beacon from faith are strong enough for raid wide healing, which probably was used on retail.)

I discussed the topic in direct messages with cho and krem so i wanted to find some kind of good video source as proof which I still wasn't able to do so.
Also there is not much reason for us helpers to endlessly search for videos and sources just to deny/approve some assumption.

If you can't find some actual source with logs/combat log or very clear overhealing from beacon I can just reject this post as it slowly goes overboard.

[Vouchery]

Flashmoo wrote:

Wow, Vouchery, you are really mad, not kidding. Now you are saying that words > numbers, tell me more about it Look at the 7.2.5 video that Lhiithium posted and where he described with details all the numbers. You didn't say anything about them you only argue with what is a theory crafter that wasn't sure anyway about anything. And for your info, look on the below video where a holy paladin wasn't using BoV and he was focused only to do heal on raid not on tanks like you are saying. Please stop inventing theories if you don't know the class at all. Spoiler: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bxYyBRx_Oo8:

Good example, as you can see hes using double beacon to heal tanks better and theyre on the two Tanks the whole time, My point proven, Re-read what I said above. Tank healing does not mean youre only healing the tanks, Are we playing the same game? I fear youre also being biased because youre both in the same guild as well as Downvoting anything thats is said against Lith. 1 More day.


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[Vouchery]

You have failed to give concrete evidence for this report after almost 2 weeks of it being open, Closing this for now, Feel free to make a new report once you've found concrete evidence.

Good day.


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