PvE downscale / disables in PvP

[Shocker]

Following lots of random topics regarding PvE downscale in PvP, I've created this topic to have on-topic discussions only and will most likely update this post as the discussions advance.

• DONE:
  
  
  
  • I have decreased the ilvl limit of PvE downscaling in PvP even more just now, from 550 to 530, fix is live
    
  • I recently fixed trinket procs to downscale in PvP too https://forum.wow-freakz.com/FIXED-Item-PvE-to-PvP-ilvl-downscale-for-trinket-procs-t426974.html (the proc is based on the downscaled item level, not some random downscale value)
    
  • T16 bonuses no longer proc in rated arenas / rated battlegrounds (bug report here)
    
  • Heirloom weapons now also downscale in PvP
    
  
  
• PENDING: (decided, not fixed yet)
  
  
  
  
  
• STILL UNDER DISCUSSION: (not decided, still discussing about it)
  
  • PvE trinkets further downscale in PvP
    
  
  
  

What else should we do? Please post only on-topic stuffs, not useless dramas

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[mental^depress]

The downscale, especially for trinkets isn't lower enough. Those trinkets NEVER existed in ARENA, no one was using any of them, NO ONE. Why? Because those trinkets were scaled down so much, that their CDR proc chance or intel / str / agil proc were extremely low. Just think about it, why here there are 10 players ( at the moment ) that uses them, and why no one were using them on retail? Not even the newcomers.


'' Just tested the trinket. With it rapid fire CD was 2.81 min = ~6.3% CD reduction. Making it next to no recovery. ''

Info: http://www.skill-capped.com/forums/showthread.php?26823-Assurance-of-Consequence

Keep in mind that the trinket above on the Heroic 4/4 version has 46% ~ CDR, and that hunter had only 6.3% in ARENA.


Random Info: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/256165-assurance-of-consequence/ ( Everyone is saying that those CDR trinkets are not even providing HALF of their CDR chance while in an Arena. )


On retail, in S15 season, indeed, the PVE ceiling was rised to 540 ilvl but the CDR trinkets had their proc extremely reduced in Arenas, also Battlegrounds by a lot.

Info: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11675097762

So, we can go three ways, and listen carefully:

Way I: Lower the PvE items ilvl to 512 in Arenas / Battlegrounds.
Way II: Raise the ilvl ceiling for PvE gear to 540 ( like it was on retail ) and make a custom fix that each CDR trinket ( Assurance of Consequence and Evil Eye of Galakras ) will have their CDR bonus reduced to 10% while in an Arena, Battleground or Duel.
Way III: Make a custom fix that each PvE trinket's stats / gains / bonuses gets reduced to HALF while in an Arena or Battleground or Duel.


There are already players that don't want to do arenas because of those trinkets. The players that have them are just facerolling around, one shoting anyone that gets against them in an arena. Keep in mind that some of those play only arenas so, if the PvP isn't fun for them, they'll leave. There are already more than 15-20 persons against those trinkets. They never existed on retail in Arenas / Battlegrounds.


How all of this evolved:

Without downscale: http://i.imgur.com/Rw9rhmv.jpg ( 16,295 AGILITY )
After the first downscale fix ( The 550 ilvl one ): http://i.imgur.com/OWF39JY.jpg ( 13,524 AGILITY )
After yesterday's fix: ( Downscale being reduced to 530 ilvl ): http://i.imgur.com/Qjq1aZw.jpg ( 11,226 AGILITY )
PRIDEFUL INSIGNIA gives only 6725 AGILITY, the difference is almost double.. also, if we'll look at the CDR proc... it's still huge. That's why those things are just destroying the PvP and they prevented them from doing that on retail.


I've lost more than 4 hours into posting & finding info while others are just bitc*ing around, not coming with a single piece of info, just posting random shit in topics. At least, try and do it as i've explained above, and, if something appears, reverse it back.

[Rep107]

My question is, why Heroic Heirloom weapons still don't downscale in Arena/Bg's ?

[Shocker]

Rep107 wrote:

My question is, why Heroic Heirloom weapons still don't downscale in Arena/Bg's ?

Forgot about them, they have a different stats calculation mechanism, fixed

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[NoNameGlad]

@shocker ? What about mental's post?

[Shadowy]

i would appreciate if we get more attention to pve trinkets asap, it gets ridiculous and people just climb the ladders for free.

[Rep107]

How do I know that PvE items actually downscale?
If I inspect another player and mouseover his PvE items in BG or Arena I see no changes, the stats and ilvl remain the same... if this is a visual bug, can it be fixed?

[Shocker]

Rep107 wrote:

How do I know that PvE items actually downscale? If I inspect another player and mouseover his PvE items in BG or Arena I see no changes, the stats and ilvl remain the same... if this is a visual bug, can it be fixed?

I didn't find a way to change item tooltips for each item sepparately depending on its downscale, it's just a visual issue, no harm done.

Regarding what mental said, I don't know what to do, I don't want to randomly nerf items based on guesses/etc

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[Rep107]

You don't want to randomly nerf PvE Trinkets, but I'd suggest completely disabling them in BG and Arena, until a proper fix is found?

... Not all realise but some classes like Rogues and Warlocks benefit too much from them, it's unfair and "a bit" game breaking.

[raven3]

regarding the shado-pan trinkets https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=94508 and https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=94511 :
I'm sorry but I don't have them so if anyone can shed shome light on how they are working now ?
They should have the proc reduced by half and the duration doubled
proof :

Quote:

Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault now grants a reduced bonus of 4400 to Strength, down from 8800 Strength, and the effect duration now lasts 30 seconds, up from 15 seconds when the effect is activated in PvP combat. Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault now grants a reduced bonus of 4400 to Agility, down from 8800 Agility, and the effect duration now lasts 40 seconds, up from 20 seconds when the effect is activated in PvP combat.

source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/259175-patch-52-hotfixes-april-18/

Additional information :

Quote:

The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 33%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena. Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun Renataki’s Soul Charm Steadfast Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault Wushoolay’s Final Choice The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 75%, but have a 400% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena. Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire Gaze of the Twins Primordius’ Talisman of Rage Talisman of Bloodlust All other trinkets above ilevel 502 have on-use effects reduced by 50%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

source : http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/5-3-0

I honestly think this part

Quote:

All other trinkets above ilevel 502 have on-use effects reduced by 50%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

remained active from patch 5.3 onward and applies to SOO trinkets as well.

Another thing.
This is more of a question for those who have or can test the cooldown recovery trinket.
So the question is : do they work properly?
Meaning if let's say you have 50% increase recovery on a 1 minute ability. That doesn't mean that ability will have a 30 second cooldown because cooldown recovery rate =/= cooldown reduction. the first one functions like haste.
The actual formula is : (cooldown_with_trinket) = (cooldown_without_trinket) / (1 + cd_recovery%)
That means with a 50% increase recovery on a 1 min ability - that ability will now have 40 sec cd.
here's a discussion regarding this aspect:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10494872637

[mental^depress]

Shocker wrote:

Regarding what mental said, I don't know what to do, I don't want to randomly nerf items based on guesses/etc

Man, we can't stay like this anymore, it became horrible, trust me.


Just have a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/asVYDMC.png - Image that after those 2 trinkets proc, his damage is nearly twice as much, nearly killing anyone in 6 sec if they don't use a defensive CD.


Purified Bindings of Immerseus: this trinket for example and any other proc trinket should have their proc HALVED while the player is in Arena / Rated BG. - http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/242212-caster-rbg-with-pve-pieces/

+ to mention that the ''amplify'' stats part gets halved too: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/10858866171 . This type of trinkets are destroying PvP here, people are just using them to do ratings / beat others, etc. They also have an excuse like: ''It's not my fault that Shocker doesn't fix the downscaling correctly''; Trust me, this is no lie, i've just quoted what others told people.



You need to take a decision regarding those downscales, i've lost so much time into it and into posting / searching for all of those...People deserve a better PvP!

Or, do the final thing, and trust me, this will be the easiest: Make a custom script where PvE 540+ ilvl items aren't usable in Arenas / Rated bgs. Don't forget that no one used PvE items in arenas on retail, so, it will be the easiest method to do and also to make anyone feel comfortable.

[dwarf]

This is madness: http://imgur.com/zfFoaYP http://imgur.com/KoXDnJT
https://armory.freakz.ro/character/genesis/boomboom

[raven3]

Found something interesting.. is in regard to how Assurance of consequence downscales to 496 ilvl but provides to be very relevant.
Keep in mind this guy didn't understand how the cd recovery rate works and was confused.. but the stats he provided are there:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/10081758222

Quote:

Assurance of Consequence in pvp is scaled down to 496 like all other pve gear is currently. But when scaled down to that, it changes the value of passive cooldown reduction to 23%. Which one Shadow Dance's 1 minute cooldown, would reduce it by 13.8 seconds. Bringing it to a 46.2 second cooldown. Instead it is at a 56.3 second cooldown, which is actually a 3.7 second reduction (not 23% like as advertised on tooltip) The reduction to vanish (and the other 2 minute cds) changes from a 2 min cd to a 1.88 min cd, which is an 8 second reduction. Once again not a 27.6 second reduction (23% as advertised) The same can be said for the 3 minute Shadow Blades cooldown which is brought down to a 2.81 minute cd... I don't know if you guys did the math wrong or there's a bug but, can you maybe fix the tooltip so players don't waste their time trying to get something that says it does one thing but actually doesn't? Or make a post saying that the values are right some how and explain it? It all seems pretty random to me Also I just looked at the pve values as well, which are also incorrect, the raid finder version which states 31% cooldown reduction, is only applying a 23.6% cooldown reduction... Am I missing something or are none of the values actually correct on the tooltips? Or are none of the values correct in what they do? You guys either do want it to be a 31% reduction but failed at doing so, or you want it to be a 23.6% reduction and failed at labeling it...?

So what can we take from this:
Downscaled to 496, http://www.wowhead.com/item=102292/assurance-of-consequence , while increasing the cooldown recovery rate by 23%, does the following:
Reduces Shadow Dance 1 min cd by 3.7 seconds
Reduces Vanish 2 min cd by 8 seconds

And then another poster confirms that a 60 sec cd is reduced by ~4 sec:

Quote:

Instead in battleground energizing brew has 56 secs cd from wearing this trinket.

But the I used the formula : cooldown after recovery = base cooldown / 1 + recovery rate percentage
that for a recovery of 23% looks like this : base cooldown / 1.23

So I did the calculations to 1 and 2 minute cooldonws with 23% increased recovery rate and I got :
60 seconds - 11.2 seconds (the guys got only 4 inside rated pvp)
120 seconds - 22.44 seconds ( the guy got only 8 inside rated pvp)

And then I did some correlation and the only conclusion that makes sense is that the effect is reduced to ~30% in rated pvp.
So let's check:
0.30 * 23% = 6.9
with a 6.9% increased recovery rate , a 60 sec cd becomes : 60/1.069 = 56 sec similar to what the poster got
with a 6.9% increased recovery rate , a 120 sec cd becomes : 120/1.069 = 112 sec similar to what the poster got

in conclussion, I honestly think that in the case of SOO trinkets, at least the secondary effects - recovery rate, amplified crit damage, haste etc are reduced to 30% in rated pvp .
Note: that reduction is after the initial downscale.

So what the effect would be for a downscaled to 540 Assurance of consequence in rated pvp (arena, random bg, rated bg)
At 540ilvl , the effect is 34.7% .. we know exactly because that is also the ilvl of the fexible raid version
0.3 + 34.7% = ~ 10.5%

With a 10.5% increased recovery rate a 60 sec cd would become :
60/1.105 = 54.3 sec cd

[mental^depress]

Could we get an answer? Almost 3 months have passed and we are still left with this frustrating problem. PvE players take advantage of it. If the problem is that complicated, just downscale correctly the SoO trinkets and the Shado-Pan agility one and everything will be fine. Ignore other trinkets ( the ones from ToT, ToeS, MsV, etc ).


Downscale those:

Assurance of Consequence: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Assurance+of+Consequence
Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=94511&&name=vicious-talisman-of-the-shado-pan-assault
Evil Eye of Galakras: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=evil+eye+of+galakras
Prismatic Prison of Pride: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=prismatic+prison+of+pr
Black Blood of Y'Shaarj: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Black+Blood+of+Y'Shaarj
Purified Bindings of Immerseus: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Purified+Bindings+of+Immerseus
Haromm's Talisman: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Haromm's+Talisman
Thok's Tail Tip: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Thok's+Tail+Tip
Skeer's Bloodsoaked Talisman: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Skeer's+Bloodsoaked+Talisman
Sigil of Rampage: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Sigil+of+Rampage
Frenzied Crystal of Rage: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Frenzied+Crystal+of+Rage
Nazgrim's Burnished Insignia: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Nazgrim's+Burnished+Insignia
Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Dysmorphic+Samophlange+of+Discontinuity
Kardris' Toxic Totem: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Kardris'+Toxic+Totem
Thok's Acid-Grooved Tooth: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Thok's+Acid-Grooved+Tooth
Fusion-Fire Core: https://www.wow-freakz.com/item_finder.php?item=Fusion-Fire+Core


Shocker.

[Callabero]

Since i was looking for atleast 2 hours on wow websites i found somethin too but there they are talkin about 522 ilvl. Heres my post from Source ↓

Callabero wrote:

Before i make a bug report i would like to please ppl that wants to remove/decrease ilvl of pve items in pvp environment also LF some useful topics and forum where is talkrought about downscaling PVE items and how they are downscaled. I was listing like 2 hours of blizzard websites like wowhead, battle net, arena junkies, MMO champion, etc. All i found is https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/13482068244 where are ppl talkin about downscaling pve trinkets in pvp (first 2 submits). I read somewhere also that since 5.3 were PVE trinket downscaled to 496 ilvl (in other words tyrannical ilvl honor gear), so its also logical to reduce SoO trinket to 522 ilvl (grievous honor gear). Please GM answer fast for this. There isnt many topics already made blizzard where i can take sources about that, coz blizzard after ends expansion deleted 80% of their informations let private servers like this cant copy data. Now i talk about full PVE (also leg backs) not only trinkets

Source: https://forum.wow-freakz.com/Remove-downscale-pve-from-arena-t457154-15.html