[Multiple] ALL classes DoTs snapshot crit

[africa]

We are posting bug reports in pending to discuss them, I don't plan on ruining classes. Bring us proof how it should be. I'm not gonna confirm any bugs based on my hunches, so keep your panties on

WoW Freakz spell link: DoTs + critical chance
Bug description: DoT ticks are updated dynamically, not snapshot.
Proof:
Based on the Balance Druid report with Unerring Vision of Too Long To Type This Damn Name, I keep reading that ALL DoTs from ALL classes snapshot the crit chance and should crit for their full duration. There are exceptions (eg shadow priest) but they are fixed here.

So this is from GC:

Quote:

Good question. We decided to dig into all of the dots and found they worked pretty inconsistently. (Consistency isn't always critical because it does lead to a certain amount of ***, but too little consistency can just be confusing too.) We made a pass at all of the class dots and made them snapshot crit chance. This will have implications in any simulations out there. However, this has some implications on the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen trinket. We’re tentatively fine with the idea of you seeing that proc go off, and reapplying DoTs which crit for their whole duration, in most cases. There’s a couple cases where those periodic crits cause other effects, which end up being very powerful. For example, a Balance Druid can now apply Moonfire and Sunfire, and pretty much chain instant Starsurges for 15 sec, many of which are extending that Moonfire and Sunfire, probably out to 20-25 sec. That’s extremely strong, but we’re going to try leaving it alone for now. The one which is simply too strong to leave is for Shadow. For Shadow having Unerring Vision and the PvE set bonuses would mean that every SW:P tick guaranteed crits, so spawns a Shadowy Apparition, which has a 65% chance of extending SW:P and VT. And the VT ticks have a 10% chance of spawning a Shadowy Apparition as well. And both can trigger a mastery tick, both of which can also spawn another Shadowy Apparition. The net result is that the feedback loop is so strong that in attainable gear, it’s net positive, resulting in SW:P and VT lasting forever (or at least until you get very unlucky and get a long string of failed procs, which will probably take several minutes to happen). Since 100% crit SW:P and VT that never need to be refreshed is a wee bit too strong, we’re building in a failsafe. We’re fine with you getting a normal SW:P/VT duration of all crits, but not forever. When Shadowy Apparition extends SW:P and VT, and that DoT has already lasted longer than its normal duration, it will recalculate its crit chance. The result should be that the trinket procs, you reapply SW:P/VT, and get 18/15 sec of crits, then they drop to your normal crit chance.

This isn't only for casters. Feral Druids have DoTs, DKs etc.

I tested on the server and Mage Bomb and Feral bleeds do not snapshot.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7338944524
http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&&t=4573
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1264460-Balance-Crit-no-longer-updates-dynamically
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993073

Gonna research more later, maybe find some patch notes and stuff.
I also read that in WoD they reversed it, so 5.4 should snapshot also.

[Erudax]

As far as I know, the only exceptions to Unerring Vision of Lei Shen are Balance, Fire and Shadow. From my understanding, the same thing from Shadow is also applied to these two classes. Once Perfect Aim expires, the DoT's crit chance should be recalculated. Leaving them on a snapshot would result in obnoxious stuff such as Starsuge spam, 100% crit Combustion etc.

[africa]

But I'm not talking about the trinket. I'm talking in general. GC didn't say he made a pass to all classes and bla bla for the trinket. He said the modifications/implications of snapshot crit are a concern ONLY if you have the trinket. And then he goes on about owl and SP.

A feral druid's DoTs have nothing to do with Lei Shen's trinket.

[Amnezx]

ok, i`ll post again, as far as i know @bliz 5.4, the spriest and boomie dots were updating dynamically, the rest were snapshoting, just about crit, other stats are snapshoted(eg: spell power, haste, etc). i can bring you proof from wod if needed.

[africa]

Amnezx wrote:

ok, i`ll post again, as far as i know @bliz 5.4, the spriest and boomie dots were updating dynamically, the rest were snapshoting, just about crit, other stats are snapshoted(eg: spell power, haste, etc). i can bring you proof from wod if needed.

Uhm how can you bring proof from WoD if they don't snapshot anymore?

And this report is not for those damn boomkins. There are many other classes with DoTs.....

[Amnezx]

africa wrote:

Amnezx wrote: ok, i`ll post again, as far as i know @bliz 5.4, the spriest and boomie dots were updating dynamically, the rest were snapshoting, just about crit, other stats are snapshoted(eg: spell power, haste, etc). i can bring you proof from wod if needed. Uhm how can you bring proof from WoD if they don't snapshot anymore? And this report is not for those damn boomkins. There are many other classes with DoTs.....

i was trying to help somehow. i know that there was some fix after this trink was live because of spriest insane dots refresh and boomies insta surges. just think a bit the problem, let a bomie cast dots with 100% crit, he`ll have full 25 sec(correct me if i`m wrong) of insta surges, this will lead into insane dps + ruining pvp. Ok, let`s take spriests with 100% crit on dots, the shadowy apparition will refresh the dot infinitely, this will lead to 100% crit all the time @dots, other classes are snapshoting the crit because they don`t have such powerfull passives, you have to be a fool to think that boomie/spriest dots should snap crit

[africa]

Amnezx wrote:

africa wrote: Amnezx wrote: ok, i`ll post again, as far as i know @bliz 5.4, the spriest and boomie dots were updating dynamically, the rest were snapshoting, just about crit, other stats are snapshoted(eg: spell power, haste, etc). i can bring you proof from wod if needed. Uhm how can you bring proof from WoD if they don't snapshot anymore? And this report is not for those damn boomkins. There are many other classes with DoTs..... i was trying to help somehow. i know that there was some fix after this trink was live because of spriest insane dots refresh and boomies insta surges. just think a bit the problem, let a bomie cast dots with 100% crit, he`ll have full 25 sec(correct me if i`m wrong) of insta surges, this will lead into insane dps + ruining pvp. Ok, let`s take spriests with 100% crit on dots, the shadowy apparition will refresh the dot infinitely, this will lead to 100% crit all the time @dots, other classes are snapshoting the crit because they don`t have such powerfull passives, you have to be a fool to think that boomie/spriest dots should snap crit

SP is fixed and has that blizz fail proof also. The boomkins are the only ones left with the issue still debating.
That's the whole point of the report...Other classes are NOT snapshotting the crit.

[africa]

More proof:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=4GPPfUT-OT4:



Demo Warlock dummy

A DK with trinket and snapshotting diseases


Balance druid snapshot




Moonkin vs Warlock vs Shadow Priest

So 460k AOE at dummy vs 360k single target vs 1M (damn procs O.O) in raid.

How can Warlocks and Priests benefit from this, but other classes can't?

[Merlynx]

africa wrote:

More proof: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4GPPfUT-OT4: Demo Warlock dummy A DK with trinket and snapshotting diseases Balance druid snapshot Moonkin vs Warlock vs Shadow Priest So 460k AOE at dummy vs 360k single target vs 1M (damn procs O.O) in raid. How can Warlocks and Priests benefit from this, but other classes can't?

look at this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=9nA9mzzgsK4:

. with actual pve gear i have a lot more crit as in video....buffed with crit i have 44%+ crit without intel proc and i don't have starsurge like in video.....if you look at dots damage you see the crits ar the same.when dots crit we have 30% chance to shooting star( insta starsurge) is logical when we have intel proc is necesary to reaply de dots with full intel proc(more intel=more crit= more insta starsurge) @ africa look at the the addon he use in this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=60BTsvR42mg:

.is like warlock addon to see when is benefical to reaply dots with trinkets proc.why are using that addon if boomy don't make snapshot at dots?see the numbers above dots with green and red and look at 6:44 what saying about reaply dots.sorry for bad english but is late
@africa

[africa]

Mage Crit Snapshot

Quote:

DoTs snapshot crit; that was pretty known. Once again, a lovely lingering effect from Shatter gives us a 100% crit chance on Pyroblast's DoT! When I tested it on Beta, with the proc of 100% crit, if you applied Combustion during that buff, all 20-40 ticks of combustion (depending on your snapshot haste) will crit as well. That works in a different way though. Lei Shen's trinket actually gives you 100% crit on your character sheet. Shatter does not and is applied to your target's hidden value for "chance to be crit", similar to the old Improved Scorch debuff (+5% chance to crit target with spells). Combustion's DoT doesn't benefit from Shatter. If Lei Shen's trinket didn't snapshot for all DoTs, that would be weird.

Look at his Pyro dots from shatter critical:


Now look at mine:


My test was done with freeze on the target for shatter effect. The pyro crit, so that means shatter was in effect and the target was still frozen when the DoTs started ticking, so that means shatter was on the target still.


Doesn't work with the dot component of combustion though, i might add ------- However, if you pop combustion during unerring vision of leshein trinket, every combustion tick will crit for its duration. Has made for some crazy bursts when it actually lines up properly.
First part is Shatter + Combustion which doesn't work and second is 100% crit + Combustion

[africa]

We can all agree SimCraft is very very accurate and I even tested the Shadow Priest fail safe system regarding the trinket.

All these simulations are to prove crit is snapshot and I used the trinket proc because it has 100% crit chance. I DO NOT want to prove this trinket is good for Balance druids, or that Hunters should get it!!!!

I did exactly as Ghostcrawler said, using Mind Flay for filler, Vampiric Touch up all the time and SW:Pain ONLY when the trinket proc.
I'll post the simulate code and the results.





As you can see, SW:P had only 32.5% crit chance, because after the safe time, it recalculates crit to whatever value I normally have.

Now, I tested 5 other classes and for Mage class I tested Combustion, Pyro and Living Bomb.

Balance Druid Moonfire:





Elemental Shaman Flame Shock:





Feral Druid Rake:





Hunter Serpent Sting:





Mage Combustion/Living Bomb/Pyroblast:







I had to make Pyro be cast with Perfect Aim and also with Hot Streak, so it won't cast Pyro without the buff.




So in all the Sims, the DoT snapshot the crit chance and acted accordingly.
What is beyond me, is why would you think Warlocks and Priests should have snapshot, but other classes should not.
You claim that you can have 8 seconds of trinket with Mage AT and you can get a HUGE combustion. Ok I'll grant you that. And after? Can you line up the trinket+combustion+ignite? Or do you think in those 4 seconds of uptime you can cast a Pyro and Fireball and other stuff to get that HUGE combustion again?
How is it that a huge combustion is not appropriate, but a Demo Warlock can pull 600k DPS as opener? How is it that a SP pulled 1 million dps because of RNG? Those are ok numbers, right?
Some might say: "but Africa, Demonology is not working atm, so your argument is invalid". Well what if Demonology will work proper some day?


While some classes might have huge bursts, others have good sustained damage. In the end, it all balances out in a way.

Another question: Blizz nerfed the RPPM for the trinket for Balance. Why would they nerf a trinket for a class that didn't benefit from it in the first place? Wouldn't it be normal to increase the RPPM so that they get more procs?
Did you know Blizz nerfed the trinket for Warlocks because it is good apparently?
Explain how they nerf the RPPM for a class that gets snapshot values and also nerf it for a class that doesn't get snapshots. In those 4 seconds of uptime, Balance druids get 2-3 procs of Starsurge, without snapshot. That's so gamebreaking... Lets nerf it... WOW!

Waiting for counter arguments. Not how it SHOULD NOT be, but how it really is.

[Merlynx]

nice job @africa with this com ,,Another question: Blizz nerfed the RPPM for the trinket for Balance. Why would they nerf a trinket for a class that didn't benefit from it in the first place? Wouldn't it be normal to increase the RPPM so that they get more procs?
Did you know Blizz nerfed the trinket for Warlocks because it is good apparently?
Explain how they nerf the RPPM for a class that gets snapshot values and also nerf it for a class that doesn't get snapshots. In those 4 seconds of uptime, Balance druids get 2-3 procs of Starsurge, without snapshot. That's so gamebreaking... Lets nerf it... WOW! '' blizz nerf de trinket with a reason for balance because of huge burst and starsurge proc!!!! i think you clarify de problem about this trinket!!! good job again.i hope will be fix this problem soon....

[alex21112]

Well as said by ghostcrawler in this post http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=107#2129
it says

Quote:

Good question. We decided to dig into all of the dots and found they worked pretty inconsistently. (Consistency isn't always critical because it does lead to a certain amount of ***, but too little consistency can just be confusing too.) We made a pass at all of the class dots and made them snapshot crit chance. This will have implications in any simulations out there.

Quote:

EDIT: This is for 5.2, but that's looming over us anyway.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10973487596#2

Balance related

Quote:

You will have to refresh the dot. Your dots take a "snapshot" of your current buffs, debuffs, intellect, haste, crit, etc, when you apply them.

or http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10717931919#14

Quote:

Are you saying that they snapshot spell power and crit (like your dots do), but not haste?

[ismael1370]

2 weeks after 5.4 released
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10070927087
warlock complain about lei shen trinket...
he says "less procs", not "no more snapshots from crit"...

Quote:

The spec is dead. With the nerf to the trinket and imps it kills the spec. Also with less imps form less trinket procs there are less molten core procs so less soul fires to be cast.

I don't know much from warlocks but I saw this video
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=51VVwO-egDo
or this one with more details
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngnq0lTc2qg

also for balance dudu
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1271229-Unerring-Vision-of-Lei-Shen-nerf-boomkins-ONLY
he also says about other nerfs

Quote:

They've specifically nerfed it for spriests so that they can only get the 100% on the initial duration of the dot. As for affliction, the 100% crit only counts for the dots, and dot ticks triggered by malefic grasp and drain soul do not 100% crit for the duration.

for shadow priest: they have it fully functionall in start of fight...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tFv5WcTtQhs
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7979928547


fire mages:
nothing ! but heard somewhere fire snapshotting is different



crit snapshot is not so important without this trinket (the exception is mage bombs vs shatter) or maybe intel or agil proc trinkets that affect crit too, and rune of re-origination...
and if crit snapshot gets fixed without lei-shen trinkets special fix, some classes will become unstoppable.. and also pvp gets fully destroyed...

but, can freakz fixers fix this? does they have enough time?
I preffer crit snapshot gets fixed, but unerring vision of lei-shen should be disabled for snapshotting (only if its too much time consuming to fix) for avoiding bugs or exploits, and it is not the BIS in whole expansion. SOO will be active tier soon, so nobody will care about a tot trinket..

so, don't let one trinket ruin the whole game :/

[africa]

Bump.

Need some counter arguments please.