Class changes (8.3 - glimmer example)

[uffi]

Would you ever consider making class changes / reverting changes to previous patches that we are basically skipping? (this does NOT mean "omg buff spell ABC by x%" , at least not explicitly)

Hear me out on this, since i decided to give an example. If someone has any other example of a change for different class, that would work in a similar manner feel free to write down, and give your opinion on it. This is the one im familiar with.

I'll talk about glimmer of light, azerite trait for holy paladin. *insert spell tooltip here* It became bread and butter for the spec from (late) 8.1, when in became popular, till the end of BFA. It also got nerfed multiple times (numbers vise) over the course of the expansion and was given TARGET CAP with release of 8.3. Main thing i want to focus on is the target cap. Reason for this cap is cumulative value of bfa systems that were introduced in the later patches. Those beeing essences (minor impact, vision of perfection, giving wings thus enabling more holy shocks and more glimmers), CORRUPTION (major impact, ineffable truth, faster cd recovery thus with good setup enabling infinite holy shocks and glimmer, you can see here reason for target cap) and ofcourse item level of the last patch (trait healing scales with ilvl, and haste to some extend cba explaining). So what we are left with, and what we play now with, is the final version of the trait adjusted for 8.3 Content without things stated above (essences/corruption/ilvl).

After all this being said i would suggest removing the target cap from glimmer. How Will this affect game play and balance in my opinion?
In raids: it Will make game play more engaging for paladins who know how to keep more than 8 glimmers out of their cooldowns, so very small number of People. HPS would be a bit better overall, but value of glimmer is already so small (imo) that melee wings sound like legit option, again, and on top of that for the next 3 raids also? Since i dont think 10s of random wings procs evey minute is gonna make any difference if you keep it like this.
Mythic plus: This is where target cap is irrelevant so, no it wouldn't change anything, except a bit more dps, maybe.
Pvp: No changes.






Off topic but kinda not off topic: i would like to hear from Zlu on this topic since he is aware that demo should blast this raid (bod) . Do i think it is blasting (not counting Zlus gear) ? No. Would i like to see demo blast a raid tier? Absolutelly.
I am yet to see good shadow priest. They were supposed to top of the meters this and next two raids,but than in 8.3 they ended in the middle of the pack (this happens every xpack at least once cus it's hard to balance class, but not here cus there is nothing to balance out) . Would i like to see spriest topping meters and beeing unbalanced one raid tier? Absolutelly.
Outlaw should be top guy in m+. Outlaws that do good seen:0. Everyone be assass for some reason.

I went far and wide so i'll stop here, wish you all happy holidays and think about what class to reroll to untill 8.3 comes out.

*wild idea* The thing is this already feels so custom that you can go further. you have whole server for yourself, make it great. You can even make your own meta and little Timmy who likes his sub rogue/shadow priest/ww monk/outlaw rogue/frost dk and plays it well can be competitive. Be like hey guys we went ahead and buffed / nerfed this , make your own patch notes. Im talking pve only, i dont want to make pvpers cry even more kekw. *wild idea ends*

[Amnezx]

You do understand, that there is just too much of an effort to change thousands of spells modifiers to match the current phase of the game, and another effort to change it as soon as phases are changing, and I guarantee you that no one will assume the responsibility of changing the spells/azerites etc this way since you don't have enough sources to match the patch.

[uffi]

Yes i do understand that very well actually. That is the reason why we are on this system where we are on 8.3 with locked Content,but i assume you are refering to the second part of the argument which wasn't really the point of the post and maybe i should have separated them into two.

I am refering to very specific thing, target cap on glimmer. I did not ask for class overhaul, tuning of a of all the spells, nor did i ask for azerite number power change. And ofcourse im not asking for those changes on patch to patch basus. I am talking about ONE specific change (that is very big, and with reason stated above should be remove imo) that dictated the game play of the class for two (and a half, if you count in 8.1.5) patches in raid scenarios. In freakz time we are talking about one year (?) of content. I also asked for examples of such changes for other classes if there are any, cus i am not all knowing and i am actually curious.

As for the second part i assume you focused on every class spec should have hidden modified in a form of "+ or - x%", i dont know if it can be limited to pve instance only, but it could maybe replicate class balance on patch to patch Base without much effort. But this wasn't even main point of the topic.

Hope this clears things up a bit. I'm talking glimmer here. Will delete second part of the post if it continues making the confusion. Cheers.

[Shilen]

Holy Paladin at BIS at the moment can easily pull 50k HPS in good raid setups, so if you take off the limit of the target you're looking at double/triple this amount, also just as a heads up, the cap won't be removed for sure. Just as the same way Glimmer did not exist in 8.0 on Retail, altho we had it here, due to content cap and azerite trait/gear is scaled down to match the current tier.

[uffi]

Why are you putting bis/donors in this topic. It legit doesnt matter what build they play, they Will do great hps Just by farting. And im not even trying to be mean, that's how it is. If you know any dono hpala tell him/her to go full crit and play melee wings, get back to me on how it went (it Will be same, or better, cus glimmer is poop atm).

Overall hps wont double for sure, hps of glimmer maybe, for bis People (again irrelevant i think), cus they Will be able to keep 2x the glimmers up all the time, or skilled People that tryhard and minmax, average player wont be affected at all (maybe during CDs only).

You mentioned 8.1 glimmer, the scaled DOWN version of trait that scales WITH item level and has the LEAST number value cus it's from 8.3, nonsence dont you agree? (I can imaggine it comapring to melee wings in this scenario ONLY if you are full donated haste stacked. Even than i doubt.

Also i didnt even mention that only in 8.3 they added the glimmer and mastery on wings proc on the same azerite pieces into the game that negated nerf a bit.

I am the guy that didnt get to play warlock effigy in legion (and i wanted to, yeah im crazy i know) and now i wont be able to play actual glimmer. Btw i'm still waiting to see what other class has a similar example of it's core spell beeing butchered like this.

Btw ever seen a good disco priest? I saw one in legion. (Will use this in future arguments if needed)

[uffi]

Here is some math stuff regarding how removing cap would affect balance,and help you understand how big of a buff it would be:

1. If you check logs of top hpalas in 8.1 and 8.1.5 (i randomly selected around 10 Best holy paladins) you would see that on average they have 7-8 glimmer on raid (20 People). You get this by dividing glimmer hits by holy shock hits. So ON AVERAGE this change does nothing (there is a limitation to how many glimmers you can have up. 30 sec / number of possible holy shock casts. Dependa on haste mostly, lining up with crusade strike and stuff)

2. When does it actually matter? The THEORETICAL max buff of unlocking cap would come during wings. If you where to apply glimmer to whole raid, at it's peak (20 glimmers) you would get 150% increase (Just based of increase from 8 to 20 aplications). So it's not "double/tripple hps overall", it's 2.5x (for glimmer hps) at that very moment, and for how long? SECONDS. You are basically ramping up to 150% and than going down as glimmers start to fall. The amount (%) and duration of "buff" you would use is entirely SKILL DEPENDANT. If you are not properly geared/ not staying in melee /reapplying it you Will never reach this much.

3. Now to put into perspective how strong numbers glimmer had in 8.1 on retail and how it is on freakz attm. Having 20 glimmers up on raid would compare to 13 glimmers of the initial retail value. This basically means that we currently have 36% nerf WITH tagert cap. This means that currently Having 8 glimmers rolling coresponds to 5 glimmers in 8.1. Removing cap would still keep 36% nerf (and i think that is big enough nerf already). Ask yourself would People on retail still play glimmer in this case with this tooltip we have right now.

After these remember that im asking for application cap to be removed,not number tuning. It would end with 8.3 release and it would make gameplay fun for two whole raids (and yeah it would buff the class but to what extend and to who would this apply you saw above)

Values for calculations were taken from wowhead changelogs.

Ps: I asked you for disco priest because it's a hard class to play but it should be top healer, mandatory one. You have to know damage patterns and it requires preparation. I have seen one in legion and thats it. Noone plays disco because it's hard to master. I think this would be hard to master too. You need a lot of stuff for it to work, 3 specific traits, tons of haste on gear, specific game play and knowing when to wings so you dont do 90% overhealing. It's still simple than disco, i am not arogant enough to copare the two. Another point of view could be me Just saying imagine disco priest with atonement cap (it would do same numbers - Just to remove tuning out of conversation, but would it be s fun to play? No, it would not. Also i would assume it would be borong af for veteran discs playes)

I think i dont have anything to add after this. Cheers.

[Amnezx]

uffi wrote:

Yes i do understand that very well actually. That is the reason why we are on this system where we are on 8.3 with locked Content,but i assume you are refering to the second part of the argument which wasn't really the point of the post and maybe i should have separated them into two. I am refering to very specific thing, target cap on glimmer. I did not ask for class overhaul, tuning of a of all the spells, nor did i ask for azerite number power change. And ofcourse im not asking for those changes on patch to patch basus. I am talking about ONE specific change (that is very big, and with reason stated above should be remove imo) that dictated the game play of the class for two (and a half, if you count in 8.1.5) patches in raid scenarios. In freakz time we are talking about one year (?) of content. I also asked for examples of such changes for other classes if there are any, cus i am not all knowing and i am actually curious. As for the second part i assume you focused on every class spec should have hidden modified in a form of "+ or - x%", i dont know if it can be limited to pve instance only, but it could maybe replicate class balance on patch to patch Base without much effort. But this wasn't even main point of the topic. Hope this clears things up a bit. I'm talking glimmer here. Will delete second part of the post if it continues making the confusion. Cheers.

I see that you do not understand. If they would make a change for a single azerite, then is not fair for other classes. It doesn't matter the gear (bis or not), glimmer is best in slot azerite trait for hpala, removing the cap (that blizzard added with a good reason), will create chaos and will create a huge gap between healers in PvE, since in PvP it won't be that impactful.

[Mighty]

Amnezx wrote:

uffi wrote: Yes i do understand that very well actually. That is the reason why we are on this system where we are on 8.3 with locked Content,but i assume you are refering to the second part of the argument which wasn't really the point of the post and maybe i should have separated them into two. I am refering to very specific thing, target cap on glimmer. I did not ask for class overhaul, tuning of a of all the spells, nor did i ask for azerite number power change. And ofcourse im not asking for those changes on patch to patch basus. I am talking about ONE specific change (that is very big, and with reason stated above should be remove imo) that dictated the game play of the class for two (and a half, if you count in 8.1.5) patches in raid scenarios. In freakz time we are talking about one year (?) of content. I also asked for examples of such changes for other classes if there are any, cus i am not all knowing and i am actually curious. As for the second part i assume you focused on every class spec should have hidden modified in a form of "+ or - x%", i dont know if it can be limited to pve instance only, but it could maybe replicate class balance on patch to patch Base without much effort. But this wasn't even main point of the topic. Hope this clears things up a bit. I'm talking glimmer here. Will delete second part of the post if it continues making the confusion. Cheers. I see that you do not understand. If they would make a change for a single azerite, then is not fair for other classes. It doesn't matter the gear (bis or not), glimmer is best in slot azerite trait for hpala, removing the cap (that blizzard added with a good reason), will create chaos and will create a huge gap between healers in PvE, since in PvP it won't be that impactful.

Exactly, well said. Not to be rude, but this sounds more like a cry for "buff my class men i am not top on recount", every other class got nerfed at some point not only yours and they got nerfed for a reason. If u really wanna find out that reason maybe u should mail blizz on why they did what they did. What would be if anyone would ask for the best version of their class? Freakz just like it says on the front page claims to be a blizzlike server so having blizzlike changes for everybody and not custom made changes makes it more fair for everybody so no one can complain to Freakz about custom buffs/nerfs (e.g why you buffed warrior, why you nerfed paladin not fair men, ...). Bcuz, lets be fair, we all knew from the very start what we are getting into (https://imgur.com/a/Z4U2EBp), we just didnt knew how that would play out or rather said perform on a live environment. This ACTUALLY gives a chance to people who did their research or played retail to pick the right class/spec from the very start and top the metters. Usually the latest patch notes into an expansion brings the most balance to the game overall cuz after playing with numbers for so long they finally get close to the right tuning so i kinda agree with what Freakz did here, at least from my point of view. Maybe this looks more unfair to you or your class but remember everyone is in the same boat, more or less.

[Arkod]

There won't be any class changes, at least in the near future, if you consider that something is no working as intended, then you are free to make a report on this section.

As stated above, every class is on its 8.3 version hence the underwhelming performances...in some cases.

We are going to deliver the further patches as soon as possible in order to lend "crippled" classes a helping hand in that matter.

Closing the topic since there is no need for additional comments.