[Multiple][Tank] Vengeance

[kaorri]

Greetings,

Vengeance got a bit of a fix recently (https://forum.wow-freakz.com/FIXED-Multiple-Vengeance-vs-DoTs-and-damage-modifiers-t450779.html)
However I've done some digging and it would seem that not everything is working as intended.
Most tanks would agree with me that the amount of Vengeance we currently get is quite a bit lower that was accumulated in Retail.

I've done some digging and here are some details and examples of what Veng should look like:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120809225623/http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5889309137?page=186

This of course is prior to the nerf that got it down to 1.5 however the sources bellow confirm the formula was pretty unchanged throughout the expansion

Spoiler:

''We are changing Vengeance to increase AP equal to 5% of the damage you take for 20 sec. This buff will "roll" so that as it gets refreshed the unused part is added to the new buff, similar to how Ignite or Stagger work. The net result will be that Vengeance stacks by the amount of DPS being thrown at you over 20 sec. T

Additional nuances:

-- Avoidance will not count against you. Avoiding an attack will extend the current Vengeance stack back to 20 sec (as if you were hit again for the same DPS).
-- Blocks, absorbs, Stagger and Shield of the Righteous will also not count against you. The damage before these effects is used for the Vengeance calculation.
-- To reduce ramp up time, we bump you up to halfway to whatever your average Vengeance level would be based on each individual hit. Essentially, we skip the first 10 sec of ramping.''


-- Whenever you get hit, Vengeance is added based on the damage of the hit before block, crit block, absorbs, stagger, and Shield of the Righteous.
-- Whenever you avoid an attack from a mob where MobLevel>=TankLevel-3, your existing Vengeance is extended to 20sec remaining.
-- Based on how hard you’re hit, we estimate how high Vengeance’s equilibrium point will be: DamageTaken / 1.5.
-- If you’re not at least half that high on Vengeance, we bump you up to that amount
-- The new Vengeance value is calculated as: 0.05 * DamageTaken + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20
-- Frenzied Regeneration and Shield Barrier’s formulae have changed to:
Frenzied Regeneration at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Agi*2), Sta*2.5)
Shield Barrier at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Str*2), Sta*2.5)
-- Yes, these do mean that it uses your AP without base AP from Str/Agi (but does still slightly include AP from Agi/Str when you’ve got the 10% AP raid buff or other +%AP buffs).

In addition, here is a 5.4 updated Guardian guide that covers the subject:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/6412404169

Spoiler:

The new formula is as follows:

0.015 * UnmitigatedDamage + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20

Whenever you take damage, you gain 1.5% of that unmitigated damage as Attack Power. This Attack Power then decays over time, losing 5% of its value every second as long as you are taking damage. If you dodge a melee attack you will still gain Vengeance as if it had actually hit you. Note that this does not apply to "special attacks" that can also be dodged (Garalon's cleave for example). Blizzard has stated that all sources of damage <em>that are directed at the player now contribute to Vengeance instead of just melee attacks. So things like magical damage, bleeds, and special attacks will also now grant Vengeance. However this does not include environmental effects like fire on the ground. This means it is no longer advantageous to "stand in bad" during an encounter.

Vengeance caps at your maximum health, this has no actual affect on gameplay since if it gets that high in a normal situation you're going to be dead anyway. The decay rate will still even out relative to the incoming damage to give you a somewhat constant level of Vengeance. When something hits you the game will attempt to "bump" you up to what it thinks is 50% of the max based on the damage you just received. Special attacks not included in the "floor" calculation, meaning you can't take an extremely large hit from a special attack to spike your Vengeance super high.

When you taunt a target that is currently attacking another tank, you will be given half of that tank's Vengeance. Further, in order to prevent that tank from instantly pulling off of you again all taunts temporarily grant the tank a 200% bonus Vengeance modifier for 4 seconds. This is in addition to the passive +700% bonus that you receive for just being a tank. Together, this means you will generate a total of 1400% threat (7*2) when you taunt a target.

Lastly, Vengeance has diminishing returns when tanking multiple targets. The formula for this diminishing returns is as follows:

The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

Note that the DR does not affect Challenge Mode dungeons.

It would seem (at least to a very novice tank) that veng ramps up slowly and it is lower that it should be.
Also, Veng gained from multiple targets is higher than what it should be at :

https://www.engadget.com/2013/08/07/patch-5-4-vengeance-changes-explained/

Spoiler:

The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

So here's an example. Say you're tanking 3 mobs – we'll say it's a boss and two adds. The boss has pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS of 1500k, one add does 400k, and the other add does 300k. The game will form a list of those mobs from 1-3, like so:
1. Boss: 1500k DPS, 1/1 (100%) of normal vengeance is granted
2. First add: 400k DPS, 1/2 (50%) of normal vengeance is granted
3. Second add: 300k DPS, 1/3 (33.333%, repeating of course) of normal vengeance is granted

This would of course continue as more mobs are being tanked (granting 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, and so on). Also, if the second add were to land a hit at any point when the first add hasn't attacked you in the last 5sec (such as if it swings first), that attack would grant 1/2 Vengeance instead of 1/3.

And here is the formula taken from the class forums of mmc, which estimates the boss damage output required to generate 200k Veng (I find myself running quite bellow that number)

The formula for melee vengeance as I know it is:

newVengeance = max((0.36*newAutoAttackDamage/swing)/2,
newAutoAttackDamage*0.018+oldVengeance*vengeanceBuffRemainingTime/20)

Basically there are two formulas, one which gives you roughly x vengeance, and one which slowly builds up to 2x vengeance and holds roughly steady. Blizz has been kind enough to compute both of these formulas for us and give us whichever one comes out to a higher number in a given situation.

Spoiler:

Here's a graph of this in action because pretty pictures (shape is more important than the actual numbers):
http://img.ctrlv.in.s3.amazonaws.com...d1e215bc99.jpg

So if we want our new vengeance and old vengeance to be 200k, then:

newVengeance=newAutoAttackDamage*0.018+oldVengeance*vengeanceBuffRemainingTime/20
200000=newAutoAttackDamage*0.018+200000*18.5/20
15000=newAutoAttackDamage*0.018
833,333.33=newAutoAttackDamage


Run that through passive mitigation of armor and stance and you get 437,499 damage per swing, which with a 1.5 swing timer is 291,666 DPS intake. What's Monk avoidance these days, 45%? So 160k real DPS intake *before Stagger and Purify and anything else you might have* will keep you at 200k vengeance.

Also here is a hotfix, confirming the above formula and explaining the Veng ramp up speed:http://mmmoc.thoorium.com/news/2956

[MeizNab]

https://forum.wow-freakz.com/view-post-4463430.html
Nr.1 from pirinush's post doesnt work.
@blizz
https://youtube.com/watch?v=eaDl9C31-HY&t=346:


1:20-1:30

[kaorri]

Bump

[MeizNab]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1488398-Damage-Taken-Formulas
"There's also a vengeance quick-ramp built in for basic melee attacks."(Nr.8 post by kaiadam)
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/241272-vengeance-hotfix-clarification/
You can see in the first post i've made (Video)(also check's pirinush post) that taunt doesnt give 50% vengeance+200% vengeance increase that's last 4 seconds(you can easly test this in game).
casuta Sockeru,Nexflame.

[kaorri]

Thanks for the input.
The formula is there, and it would seem that we are missing is:
1.The estimated ''bump'' which grants you the quick ramp up
2.The tank switch veng transfer (so you don't loose aggro to the OT
3. The overall amount is lower that what it should be and magic damage does not seem to be taken in to consideration ( not sure on the latter one).
4. AOE veng is ramping up too fast and it should be nerfed overall

[Mamadhutcher]

No it doesnt have any problems and it works perfectly . You go better thank god for their update cuz most tank lifes where horrific . I reported frost mages glyph bug but no one seems to care so i am posting here . Freakz Fixers do us a favor and fix glyph of icy veins . And 25% dmg done on hotter streak buff for pyroblast until we see more mages !!!

 

Staff message (Denim):

 

+1 warn, off-topic. Next time bring arguments and keep complaints in other parts.

[MeizNab]

Mamadhutcher wrote:

No it doesnt have any problems and it works perfectly . You go better thank god for their update cuz most tank lifes where horrific . I reported frost mages glyph bug but no one seems to care so i am posting here . Freakz Fixers do us a favor and fix glyph of icy veins . And 25% dmg done on hotter streak buff for pyroblast until we see more mages !!!

Of course you haven't even bothered to read what i posted you just came here to trash this topic with your mage nonsense.

[kaorri]

Any ''blue'' input in this one?

[MeizNab]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=JvLnWom7Mn4:


0:18 taunted the boss received 0 veng and no increase afterwards.
Daeron,Nexflame
Edit from Pirin's post 1.Cand dai taunt unui mob care este tankat de altcineva, atunci primesti 50% din vengeance-ul acelui tank si ai o rata de 200% de increase la vengeance-ul care il primesti pentru urmatoarele 4 secunde. - Nu primesti increase la vengeance si nici nu primesti 50% din vengeanceul celuilalt tank

[kaorri]

Bump

[kaorri]

Bump

[MeizNab]

@Erudax

[MeizNab]

bump

[Erudax]

First swing grants me 16000 Vengeance
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yP0C0bQzabc:


First swing grants him 131000 Vengeance
There should be a period at the beginning of the fight in which tanks have greatly increased Vengeance gain.

[kaorri]

Erudax wrote:

First swing grants me 16000 Vengeance _snip_ First swing grants him 131000 Vengeance There should be a period at the beginning of the fight in which tanks have greatly increased Vengeance gain.

From my original post:
Further, in order to prevent that tank from instantly pulling off of you again all taunts temporarily grant the tank a 200% bonus Vengeance modifier for 4 seconds. This is in addition to the passive +700% bonus that you receive for just being a tank. Together, this means you will generate a total of 1400% threat (7*2) when you taunt a target.